*with his permission, what follows is a dialogue that my friend Hippy Tim (oddly, the conservative in the conversation) and I had over the last week or so via email--I've cleaned it up for readability. I should probably mention that you want to start at the bottom and work your way to the top--which, btw, is a favorite Republican mantra. Now, w/out further ado--our version of Crossfire!
note: I've highlighted my text in orange (Tim is a huge Mets fan) to make it easier to see who is saying what.
* * * * *
hey, Tim--no, I know you are engaging in a civil discussion--no worries.I,
however, do have a persuasive intent in my responses to you, and it's
not to win an argument per se, but it is to fix what you and I both see
as the problem. Where you and I differ is that I see the Republican
"fix" as the problem--I think I've written enough to you about it, but
just look at the situation from arm's length:Bush implements
huge tax cuts; surplus goes away; worst economy since Great
Depression--and folks want to continue to cut taxes? What am I missing?
The history of the 20th century shows the opposite effect of what R's
advocate--the economy does worse with aggressive tax cuts.Many
honest, smart people will tell you that tax cuts typically don't have
the stimulative effect that even unemployment insurance has on the
economy (crazy, I know!). I just don't see historical evidence that
supports supply side economics . . . the economy does best when we all
do best and therefore we become consumers of the products that we all
make here. Unless you're sitting on the board of a large corporation, I
don't see how you personally (or me, for that matter) benefit from
Republican policies.Free market/trickle down/stimulative tax
cuts are things that border on religion--you have to have faith that
they work, and, again, I just don't see the historical evidence. Record
profits for corporations? If it doesn't help the populace at large, then
what's the point?peaceEric________________________________
wow.
i hope you know that i am not trying to be argumentative.... and
there are quite a few things that i agree with in your commentary. but
it is a recipe for continued paralysis. i am interested in solutions
only. i stay away from what i call... KNEECAPPERS like
hannity/michele malkin on the right and ... only because you cite them
.... rachel maddow and ezra klein on the left. i enjoy the
intellectual types on both sides like thomas sowell or lanny davis.
you are sophisticated enough to know that the romney/buffet types pay
only capital gains tax rates... not income tax rates. income that
remains after you pay taxes the first time... is used to invest in
business ventures. sometimes they fail sometimes not. if the business
fails... only 10% of the investment can be written off. we want to
encourage these investments... which is why clinton lowered the rate.
but the big picture to me... a right winger could duplicate the
response that you sent..... but where does that get us? you are not
going to agree with them.... they won't agree with you. the decision
is do you want that tired KNEECAPPING to end so that we can save the
country.... or is a rhetorical victory over the hated opposition more
important. i know where i stand.. because i truly fear for the effects
on the most vunerable among us. throughout these correspondences with
you... that is what i have been unartfully trying to get across. happy
easter brotherman!!! to you and yours
________________________________
i
don't feel this is partisan. i am unconcerned about how we got here.
that is a recipe for disaster. have we not had enough of the blame
game?
Listen, I'm not a cheerleader for the Democrats--they have
enough of their flaws that I have criticized (see blog), but to not
understand how we got into this situation is to ensure that we do it
again and we undertake counter-productive steps to correct it. Tax cuts
killed our surplus and adds to the deficit every day--to not acknowledge
that is walk around the bright pink elephant in the living room. How
many more ways can we demonstrate that "trickle-down" economics are a
parlor game, and Bush 1 had it right when he called it "voodoo
economics."Go look at middle class incomes since 1980--losing
traction while the wealthy continue to swell their bank accts, and w/
the terror of the estate tax being codified, we can put another nail
into our meritocracy--just like merry old England--it'll be even more of
the birth lottery than it is.It was reckless, self-serving, and
manipulative for the Bush tax cuts in the first place during at least
two wars (and the same could be said for Dems who go along w/ them, even
now.). I will give the R's props--they're masters at framing the
narrative and the ensuing discussion. Even beyond that has been their
ability to get working class and middle class voters to vote against
their own self-interest (I'm not pointing at you, just a wink at you).
And just to underscore the point: how much money could we generate if
the Mitt Romneys paid more than 14% in taxes--less than what you and I
paid last year. And before folks cry about oppressive tax rates, know
that they're at their lowest since the 50s.Blame? This is
calling out failed policies and hoping we don't continue to fall into
the trap. A tax code that asks Warren Buffett's secretary to pay a
higher percentage in taxes is not the recipe for long-term success.by
2015-16 we will be paying so much interest on our debt to china...
about 300 billion...that they will have their defense budget paid for by
U.S. taxpayers. by about 2021 the INTEREST on the debt will be
about one trillion a year. these are the kind of numbers we are looking
at. the bush tax cuts are about 700 billion... OVER 10 YEARS. 70
billion a year. not something that will make any significant
difference.
Not sure where your numbers are coming from, but the
Congressional Budget Office (non-partisan) cites the Bush tax cuts
dollars and its impact on the deficit. Sounds pretty significant to
me--wouldn't going back to the Clinton tax rates, when the economy did
pretty well, seem to be an easy fix? I mean before we start asking folks
who make less than 20K to pony up more money so that Romney and the
like can offshore more of their money and pass it on to their children
shouldn't we at least explore policy that generated a budget surplus?btw,
China owns about 8% of our debt (I think), and several other countries
actually have higher percentages--Japan and France come to mind. Again,
deficits matter but not nearly as you and others make it out. Again,
tell me why we don't worry about deficits when Reagan and Bush run up
our debt? I'm waiting . . . we had 8 years under Bush and 8 years under
Reagan--the size of the government increased and the deficits increased.
This isn't blame game; this is to highlight flawed policy that is
detrimental to the majority of Americans--you and I included. You know
what I want right now? I want my government borrowing MORE money (have
you seen interest rates lately?)--it's how we got out of the Great
Depression--the government needs to increase demand; the private sector
can't/won't do it alone (profits have never, ever been higher yet the
economy is still weak--why?)our politicians have made promises
that cannot be kept. not even close. for those under 55.. they can
choose to stay with the current program... or a voucher to choose among
competing insurers. out of pocket will be means tested. will everyone
take a hit. YES. will everyone take a bigger hit if we do nothing
YES. will the poor be hurt the most if we do nothing... absolutely.
but it is time for us to put on our big boy pants . i would welcome a
written plan from the left to compare/contrast to the ryan budget. i am
sure that there will be aspects of their plan..... if it is ever
written.. that will be helpful in the debate. i am not advocating the
ryan budget....
If nothing else happens (including taking money
from it for other expenditures), Social Security is fully solvent until
2036. Yes, we need make changes but frankly it's silly at best to tell
the custodian at the local school he can't retire until he's 70 b/c we
want Romney/Buffet paying 14% in taxes. What's the cap for SS anyway?
100K, I believe--might that not be a place to start? And both parties
continue to kick the can down the road, partly b/c taxes have becomes
such a dirty word--the conversation neither party is willing to have w/
Americans is our need to increase revenue; this is so obvious that I'm
not sure why it's not part of the debate. Go back and look at some of
the negotiations that Reagan had regarding the deficit--he understood
the need to increase revenue and actually raised taxes on Americans at
least 7 times during his presidency--again, why is this not part of our
current discussion? (start the blame w/ the Grover Norquist-types) And
the comparison is available here:*(I couldn't find the one chart
that I saw that showed any current Republican candidate budget plan
would actually increase the deficit over Obama's plan--but here are some
other tidbits. btw, this isn't partisanship--I might vote for Jill
Stein. I'm simply pointing out that the R's aren't offering a solution
to your primary concern)*from Ezra Klein on the Rachel Maddow
Show on Feb. 13, 2012. (I formatted this a bit to aid reading) Right
now, taxes are way, way, way low. In 2011, tax revenues were 15.4
percent of GDP.To give you an idea of how low that is, before the
financial crisis, you had to go back to 1950 -- 1950 -- to find a year
when taxes were that low. In 1950, there was no Medicare, there was no
Medicaid, there wasn`t even a Hawaii as one of the 50 states of the
United States.For comparison sake, taxes under Reagan were 18.2 percent
of GDP.So, think about that next time you hear about Obama is
taxing the economy to death. Taxes under Obama are lower, at least they
have been so far, than they were under Reagan. It`s not even close.Now,
taxes are so low right now Obama the Bush tax cuts brought them there,
and because of the recession. But as the economy recovers, takes will
come back a bit, too.Budget experts say they`ll get back to 17.9
percent of GDP. That`s if we just keep the Bush tax cuts and let the
economy come back. But if that happens our deficits will be huge --
huge. So we have to do something.<http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31066137/media-kit/>But
Mitt Romney and President Obama have very, very, very different ideas
as to what to do and who should pay for it.Obama`s budget wants to raise
taxes on the rich by $1.5 trillion. That means taxes rise to 19.2
percent of GDP.Romney meanwhile wants to cut taxes further. His plan
would extend all of the Bush tax cuts and then further reduce taxes on
the rich. Taxes would fall to about 17 percent of GDP.But what`s really
interesting in these two plans is who would pay.The Tax Policy
Center is this great group of non-partisan wonks who look at all these
policies in way more detail than I even can stand. But every so often,
they emerge from their caves and they sort of blink because theyhaven`t
seen the sunlight forever, and they give us great estimates how much
different groups of people would pay under the different plans.And
they`ve looked at Obama and Romney`s plans. Turns out very different
groups of people would pay.If you are in the bottom 20 percent
of the income distribution, in Obama`s plan you`ll pay federal tax rate
of 1.8 percent. Under Romney`s plan, you`ll pay almost double that, 3.4
percent. That`s the poorest group.If you`re in the middle, it`s a
lot closer, 15.2 percent under Obama`s plan, 15.6 percent under
Romney`s plan. But if you`re in that top 1 percent, as both Romney and
Obama are, the difference becomes huge. UnderObama`s plan, you pay 36.3 percent. Under Romney`s plan, 25.9 percent.To
get that out of percents and into dollars, if you`re in the top 1
percent, under Romney, your taxes will be $160,000 lower than it will be
under Obama, $160,000. Tax cuts of that size cost a lot of money,
trillions of dollars. And Romney`s promised he won`t pay for that by
cutting defense. He`s promised he won`t pay for it by raising taxes
elsewhere and his promise to balance the budget. So, you can actually
run the numbers.To make those numbers work, to make the taxes
and spending balance out, he will have to cut almost twice as deep in
spending as Paul Ryan`s budget does. It means he will have to cut every
single domestic program,including Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, all of them by 36 percent -- 36 percent.And
you know who relies on domestic programs like those? Senior citizens
and the poor. Think all of the seniors voting Republican want a 36
percent cut to Social Security and Medicare in order to pay for Romney`stax cuts for the wealthy? I sort of doubt it.*this one analyzes Ryan's budget: <http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/paul-ryans-budget-should-the-poor-pay-for-deficit-reduction/2011/08/25/gIQAxawWPS_blog.html>*from
Mike Lofgren, retired Republican Congressional staffer (28 yrs): The
Republican hopefuls who want to relieve Obama of his job would not
simply add two or three trillion dollars of deficits over the next
decade, as the president has proposed to do. Mitt Romney, who touts his
business acumen as a prime qualification to be president, makes Obama
appear as tight-fisted as Grover Cleveland by comparison. Romney's
initial tax plan<http://taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/upload/description-Romney-plan.pdf>
was as follows: those making more than $1 million a year would receive
an average federal income tax cut of $145,000 by 2015. This scheme would
increase deficits by about $180 billion annually by 2015, according to
the Tax Policy Center. But apparently that was not enough to satisfy his
contributors, so at the end of February 2012, Romney added a 20 percent
cut in all income tax rates and a repeal of the AMT. The Center
estimated<http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/numbers/displayatab.cfm?Docid=3298>
that the 20 percent rate cut would add an additional $150 billion to
the deficit in 2015 alone. The policy group did not calculate a ten-year
estimate, but it is safe to say that Romney's new and improved
boondoggle would add about $3 trillion over ten years on top of Obama's
pre-existing plan to increase the deficit by $2.7 trillion.*also from same policy guy who wrote the excerpt below: <http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2012/04/05/3-conservative-myths-about-government>*from
US News: The Ryan budget aspires to cut the budget deficit (as a share
of the economy) from 8.7 percent of Gross Domestic Product, known as
GDP, last year to 1.2 percent in 2022. That's the same 2022 deficit that
the Congressional Budget Office estimates we would reach anyway if we
made no significant legislative changes affecting the budget for the
next 10 years (see office's "baseline" projections here<http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/March2012Baseline.pdf>).we
have incredible fiscal problems at the city-state level also that are
about to blow up. smart people disagree about whether tax cuts have
been good/bad. but there is another record in history to
consider......the record of govt centered economys. zero successes.
there are two sides on the coin. there is one question the right
asks the left constantly...... but the left never gives a firm answer.
i believe you will.. so i will ask you. considering state local and
federal taxes... at what percentage does it become immoral. i say not
a dime over 50% in state local and federal combined.
Yeah, the
big problems are coming from the shift in the tax burden--the economy
did quite well from the late 1940s through the early/mid '70s with much
higher tax rates than we're paying now. The problem is that the cut in
federal income tax (which is a progressive tax) is forcing local/states
to go to increasing our sales tax, for example, which is a regressive
tax. You and I paying more in sales tax is a bigger slice of our pie
than Romney/Buffet paying the same sales tax.And, yes, smart
people debate the merits of tax cuts but most economists cut through the
politics and tell we can't fix it w/out bumping up the revenues.
Again, even Reagan did this. I'm not sure what the magic number is, but I
know if Romney/Buffet are paying only 14% in federal taxes that money
is ultimately coming from you and me. When the economy did well,
generally, for 30+ years, our tax rates were higher than they are now.
So, it's not the "taxes kill the economy" argument can really stand up
to scrutiny. The other thing to keep in mind: many in Ohio are now
paying over 25% of their income for healthcare--why are we paying the
middlemen (the insurance companies)? Other countries are smarter and
more upfront about this and this is why they have universal
healthcare--everyone pays their fair share. Imagine how stimulative it
would be to the economy if small businesses didn't have to pay for
helathcare--wow, how many people could they hire then? And imagine the
buying power we would have if everyone chips in--Medicare for all makes a
lot of sense.I think I've gone on entirely too long--thanks for
listening. As a former Republican who voted for George W. Bush in 2000,
I would encourage you to challenge your party, your assumptions--I try
to do this. For a while, I was entrenched entirely in Democrats good,
Republicans bad but that's not overly fruitful either. Both parties are
not very responsive to their constituents and both serve corporate needs
over our own. Having said that, I don't recognize this Republican party
at all. This is an ugly, new creation. And with all due respect, Tim,
I'm not sure how folks from the middle can even get behind their
self-serving and destructive policies. I don't say this to be
inflammatory or to not value your opinion/position, but simply as
someone looking at what the party in general is advocating, whether it
be budgetary or social policy--it's a far cry from Eisenhower and even
Reagan.I think the Occupy Movement is on the right track and am
hopeful that we can get our government back from the corporations. Until
then, we're both probably screwed.good talking to you--peaceEric________________________________
i
don't feel this is partisan. i am unconcerned about how we got here.
that is a recipe for disaster. have we not had enough of the blame
game? by 2015-16 we will be paying so much interest on our debt to
china... about 300 billion...that they will have their defense budget
paid for by U.S. taxpayers. by about 2021 the INTEREST on the debt
will be about one trillion a year. these are the kind of numbers we are
looking at. the bush tax cuts are about 700 billion... OVER 10
YEARS. 70 billion a year. not something that will make any
significant difference. our politicians have made promises that
cannot be kept. not even close. for those under 55.. they can choose
to stay with the current program... or a voucher to choose among
competing insurers. out of pocket will be means tested. will everyone
take a hit. YES. will everyone take a bigger hit if we do nothing
YES. will the poor be hurt the most if we do nothing... absolutely.
but it is time for us to put on our big boy pants . i would welcome a
written plan from the left to compare/contrast to the ryan budget. i am
sure that there will be aspects of their plan..... if it is ever
written.. that will be helpful in the debate. i am not advocating the
ryan budget.... i am open to all suggestions. we have incredible
fiscal problems at the city-state level also that are about to blow up.
smart people disagree about whether tax cuts have been good/bad. but
there is another record in history to consider......the record of govt
centered economys. zero successes. there are two sides on the coin.
there is one question the right asks the left constantly......
but the left never gives a firm answer. i believe you will.. so i will
ask you. considering state local and federal taxes... at what
percentage does it become immoral. i say not a dime over 50% in state
local and federal combined. watched the end of that tribe game last
nite. rough. but masterson looked great. best wishes tim
________________________________
Dear, Mr. Met.
We should really meet over on my blog (it was help build my content) :-)
But,
since you asked . . . yes, that's the basic difference between
Republicans and Democrats--how to "fix" the economy--we each have our
standard approaches. However, since we've had about 10 years of tax
cutting as a way to stimulate the economy, I think it's fairly safe to
say that it's not working as well as the R's would have us believe (the
problem is that Obama, in an effort to be seen as a centrist, has
neutered his best progressive plans by implementing/continuing tax cuts
rather than actual stimulative efforts; i.e., spending by the Fed
government.
Before I forget, you should read my post from tonight--it addresses this topic more thoroughly. But, let me say this--
1.
since when did deficits become the boogy man? They're not good, by any
means, but they're most definitely not the biggest problem we face
economically. (ironically, deficits grew under Reagan and Bush--and they
weren't a big deal. But now we have a Democrat in the WH and it's "the
sky is falling"). Now, this, of course, doesn't mean we ignore it but we
ensure its full negative impact if we cut gov spending (again, see
tonight's post for explanation).
2. fixes, you ask? do nothing . .
. allow the Bush tax cuts to expire; half the deficit goes away. The
other half? stop fighting our wars--voila, deficit nearly gone, and we
didn't have to blame workers who serve the public good (firefighters,
cops, teachers, et al.).
3. go look at unbiased assessments of
the budget plans being offered by the Presidential candidates--you'll
never guess whose plan does the best . . . btw, anybody who makes under
250,000 shouldn't touch that plan being offered up by Paul Ryan (coupons
for Medicare? come on, Man).
we'll talk more soon--here's to the Mets and Tribe meeting in Oct.
peace
Eric
________________________________
i
had a question regarding your mar 31st blog. as i mentioned before...
i feel the poor/infirm will be devastated if we do not stop with these
trillion dollar deficits. others will be hurt also... but have more
resources to cushion the blow. you may not believe this... but the
right does not want to do anything but help the poor. they just
disagree with the remedies of the left. do you have ideas on deficit
reduction... or does it just not matter. it matters to me because i do
care and want to avoid a meltdown.... which.. again.... will
devastate the poor disproportionately. respectfully mr.met
________________________________
I'm
w/ ya, Brother--I think there is a simple solution (but oh so hard to
implement): money in politics, get rid of it. Right now we're not being
represented, the corporations are and we the rabble are really just
flotsam right now, for the most part.
And I'm w/ you specifically
on the hypocrisy--if you're going to bang on Bush for wireless
wire-tapping, then you better bang on Obama for Pvt. Manning, black
sites, drones, and the assassination of a US citizen w/out trial (just
to name a few).
good hearing from you--
be well
Eric
________________________________
the
funny thing about our present polarized politics is how each side gets
dramatic about about the part of the issue that they want to address
and purposely ignore the part of the issue that does not fit their
template. it is really fun to watch. that is the fun for me in
politics. the kind of hypocracy that is slightly submerged. you won't
see it if you are not informed. that is what they count on.... and
with people so quick to cast aspersions on the other side... it goes
mostly unnoticed by the great unwashed. but both sides... even the
fire-breathers love america. which makes everything even more
heartbreaking. because i fear we are in very serious trouble on many
fronts. and i am starting to lose faith in whether we will be able to
fix things. i wish we could have a referendum on firing every senator
and congressperson and starting anew with new people who would need to
pledge to cooperate/compromise. it would be interesting to see if it
would pass. but today is opening day!!!! as i send this the mets
are tied for 1st place!!!!! peace tw
________________________________
"The
needs of the poor take priority over the desires of the rich; the
rights of workers over the maximization of profits; the preservation of
the environment over uncontrolled industrial expansion; production to
meet social needs over production for military purposes." Pope John Paul
II
________________________________
that
is the first blog i have ever read.
thanks, Tim--I appreciate that.
you seem dedicated to your positions.. a great american tradition. do
you know any informed conservatives that you have a friendly exchange
with? it is always best to test your views vs. the opposing view....
it can confirm your view... or make you reconsider.
yeah, I like
give/take as much as the next guy and I think this is a good idea--USA
Today carries Cal Thomas and Bob Beckel in this format/approach--truth
be told, I think it's more of a secondary purpose of the blog--my main
goal is to talk to people above/around mainstream media, who no longer
report news but sensationalize and ultimately distort truth and fact--we
saw how nearly all media mishandled the Iraq War yet they're doing it
again w/ Iran. It's sorta--yeah, this is what is being said but let me
tell you what it really means--although I am much more humble than that
sounds. i like the cambridge debate forum.. roberts rules of order and
all. i saw a great one from the late christopher hitchens vs ramesh
ponneru.. name misspelled... on religion. both men breathtakingly
smart. although i am christian.. i try to view intellectual argument
with an open mind. i thought ramesh pinned him. unfortunately for
me... i have tried this with a couple of close friends thinking it
would go fine. i ended up being sadly mistaken.
you're right--most
people don't want truth--they want media,et al to confirm or re-affirm
what they already believe; friends of mine won't even watch Jon Stewart
or Steven Colbert b/c of their "politics" i have a pretty easy going
attitude about it. to me it is like a met fan teasing a yankee fan.
all in good fun. the liberals i have tried to engage intellectually
have resorted to saying things with the intent of being hurtful. I
really tried to guard against this--
its' the old adage abut religion and
politics, right? don't discuss them w/ family or friends--no upside
(haha). oh well.. lessons learned. but i have to remind you of my
fear.... that i get to heaven and find out that everything i was
certain of was incorrect. i think it is good to consider. keeps one
humble. good luck with your blog!! i enjoyed reading it.
thanks again
for reading (and writing)--be well, Eric PS--I've put up a few more
posts over the weekend . . . feel free to chime in.tim